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Why trash Steamid Replacer?


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stupok
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Old 04-29-2010 , 23:40   Re: Why trash Steamid Replacer?
#11

Quote:
Originally Posted by fysiks View Post
How is this possible? What proof do you have that a server is not using or has not used a SteamID replacer?
That's a good point. Do you have any ideas? For example, I might accept reports from server admins that I know personally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by devicenull View Post
You still have yet to provide me with a use other then screwing with banlists.
What are the uses of a name-changing plugin?

You can use it to distinguish the admins or special people on your server. You can give yourself and friends novelty steamids. You can also use it to hide your steamid from other players. There are many good uses, if you have some imagination. The fact that it can ease screwing with banlists is coincidental. It's the fault of the SteamBans authors for using an unreliable report, not the fault of users who decide to change their steamids.

First you created a big system that relies on unreliable reports, hoping that no one finds out how unreliable they are. Now you're upset that the reports have been shown to be completely unreliable.

Censoring Joaquim's plugin does you no good at all. I believe it will do you harm when users start finding out the hard way that steamid reports are totally unreliable.

I don't mean to upset you or to be harsh. I realize that SteamBans is a project you care about. I'm just trying to be realistic and honest.
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fysiks
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Flatland, USA
Old 04-30-2010 , 00:14   Re: Why trash Steamid Replacer?
#12

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrecked_ View Post
Entertainment.

Having STEAM_0:1:1337 for your Steam ID brings just as much satisfaction as a VIP plugin. This community happens to have dozens of VIP plugins.
I see it as no fun whatsoever. Who has fun by having a "cool" SteamID when you never really see it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stupok View Post
That's a good point. Do you have any ideas? For example, I might accept reports from server admins that I know personally.
The internet is a big place

Quote:
Originally Posted by stupok View Post
What are the uses of a name-changing plugin?

You can use it to distinguish the admins or special people on your server. You can give yourself and friends novelty steamids. You can also use it to hide your steamid from other players. There are many good uses, if you have some imagination. The fact that it can ease screwing with banlists is coincidental. It's the fault of the SteamBans authors for using an unreliable report, not the fault of users who decide to change their steamids.

First you created a big system that relies on unreliable reports, hoping that no one finds out how unreliable they are. Now you're upset that the reports have been shown to be completely unreliable.
1. A name is something that is easily identifiable in-game while playing. Who memorizes more than one SteamID? Not me. I don't even know my own without looking it up.
2. Same reply as mine for Wrecked.
3. I don't know the technicallities of SteamBans but what is there that is more reliable than the one unique thing that identifies each person individually? Nothing? SteamID is the best thing you've got available (obviously not perfect but what else is there?).
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stupok
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Old 04-30-2010 , 00:37   Re: Why trash Steamid Replacer?
#13

fysiks, steamids are the only unique identifiers for players, but they can be changed. So, they're as reliable as ip addresses or names when you're reading them with a third-party addon like AMXX or SteamBans. It's just a bad idea to build a system on top of steamids that are known to be changeable. It was always a bad idea, right from the start, but perhaps the developers of SteamBans didn't realize this during development. Perhaps they were hoping that no one would figure it out, which is a Really Bad Idea.


What does SteamBans do?

SteamBans uses a secret hashing function to convert a steamid to some scrambled data, and then deciphers that scrambled (or hashed) data on the other end. So, if you use a steamid changer, then SteamBans will hash the fake steamid.

Now, if SteamBans could grab the real steamid regardless of whether or not it had been changed, then the problem would be averted. For example, VAC grabs the real steamid.
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joaquimandrade
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Portugal
Old 04-30-2010 , 00:39   Re: Why trash Steamid Replacer?
#14

Quote:
Originally Posted by fysiks View Post
I see it as no fun whatsoever. Who has fun by having a "cool" SteamID when you never really see it?
What you see as fun might be different from what a community which average is some years less than your age sees as fun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fysiks View Post
1. A name is something that is easily identifiable in-game while playing. Who memorizes more than one SteamID? Not me. I don't even know my own without looking it up.
2. Same reply as mine for Wrecked.
If I put myself as Offline in steam, people will still see my steam ID in the console. As a server admin I might want them to not see it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fysiks View Post
3. I don't know the technicallities of SteamBans but what is there that is more reliable than the one unique thing that identifies each person individually? Nothing? SteamID is the best thing you've got available (obviously not perfect but what else is there?).
The system is still flawed indepently of censoring the plugin or not.
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fysiks
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Old 04-30-2010 , 00:41   Re: Why trash Steamid Replacer?
#15

Quote:
Originally Posted by stupok View Post
fysiks, steamids are the only unique identifiers for players, but they can be changed. So, they're as reliable as ip addresses or names when you're reading them with a third-party addon like AMXX or SteamBans. It's just a bad idea to build a system on top of steamids that are known to be changeable. It was always a bad idea, right from the start, but perhaps the developers of SteamBans didn't realize this during development. Perhaps they were hoping that no one would figure it out, which is a Really Bad Idea.


What does SteamBans do?

SteamBans uses a secret hashing function to convert a steamid to some scrambled data, and then deciphers that scrambled (or hashed) data on the other end. So, if you use a steamid changer, then SteamBans will hash the fake steamid.

Now, if SteamBans could grab the real steamid regardless of whether or not it had been changed, then the problem would be averted. For example, VAC grabs the real steamid.

Quote:
but perhaps the developers of Steam didn't realize this during development
Say hello to VALVe. You can't fault SteamBans for using something that is designed as the only unique identifier of a Steam account.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joaquimandrade View Post
The system is still flawed indepently of censoring the plugin or not.
Perhaps Valve should have never given out any SDKs for any of it's games. That would have solve the problem. But of course, this community wouldn't exist if that was the case. I kind of see it as "biting the hand that feeds you," but that is only my opinion.

Anyways, I think I will be done here because this 'he said she said' argument is pointless.
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Last edited by fysiks; 04-30-2010 at 00:46.
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joaquimandrade
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Old 04-30-2010 , 00:50   Re: Why trash Steamid Replacer?
#16

Quote:
Originally Posted by fysiks View Post
Perhaps Valve should have never given out any SDKs for any of it's games. That would have solve the problem. But of course, this community wouldn't exist if that was the case. I kind of see it as "biting the hand that feeds you," but that is only my opinion.
They don't feed shit, they provide code with commercial restrictions so they always win. They wouldn't be half if they haven't provide SDK. Anyway, my plugin hurts them 0.
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stupok
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Old 04-30-2010 , 02:50   Re: Why trash Steamid Replacer?
#17

Quote:
Originally Posted by fysiks View Post
Say hello to VALVe. You can't fault SteamBans for using something that is designed as the only unique identifier of a Steam account.
You misquoted me. I said "developers of SteamBans", not "developers of Steam".

Anyway, of course you can. The steamid is changeable, so it was a bad decision to make a system based on this vulnerable id.

Quote:
Perhaps Valve should have never given out any SDKs for any of it's games. That would have solve the problem. But of course, this community wouldn't exist if that was the case. I kind of see it as "biting the hand that feeds you," but that is only my opinion.
I don't know where you're going with this. SteamBans is the problem, not Valve.

Quote:
Anyways, I think I will be done here because this 'he said she said' argument is pointless.
If participating in this thread bothers you, then perhaps you should take a few steps back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joaquimandrade View Post
They don't feed shit, they provide code with commercial restrictions so they always win. They wouldn't be half if they haven't provide SDK. Anyway, my plugin hurts them 0.
I think we're getting off-topic talking about Valve. The plugin does not harm anything. The only argument against the plugin that I can think of is that the plugin will accelerate the demise of SteamBans.
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Sylwester
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Poland
Old 04-30-2010 , 04:57   Re: Why trash Steamid Replacer?
#18

Quote:
Originally Posted by stupok View Post
The plugin does not harm anything.
Just how many servers, do you think, use demos with "status" included as a definite proof of cheating? Steamid replacer is basically a tool that lets you create false evidence with not much effort and you dare to say it's harmless? Are kidding me?

It's like you create a tool to duplicate Personal ID (isn't it possible to create fake? but should we stop using them since they are not perfect?) and say it's harmless.

The benefits of this plugin are nothing compared to amount of harm it may cause.

This plugins should have never been made. If it was me who discovered the way to make it, I would definitely hide it, lie to other users saying it's impossible to make such thing and try to find a way to remove possibility of anyone ever creating it.

Now, since it has already been posted, trashing it won't help, because sooner or later someone who wants to use it for bad purpose will get it and the harmed ones will be single users...
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KadiR
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Location: Zürich / Switzerland
Old 04-30-2010 , 11:23   Re: Why trash Steamid Replacer?
#19

Quote:
Originally Posted by devicenull View Post
You still have yet to provide me with a use other then screwing with banlists.
As if VAC isn't enough, we also need to have SteamBans?
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stupok
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Old 04-30-2010 , 13:02   Re: Why trash Steamid Replacer?
#20

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylwester View Post
Just how many servers, do you think, use demos with "status" included as a definite proof of cheating? Steamid replacer is basically a tool that lets you create false evidence with not much effort and you dare to say it's harmless?
Yes, it's harmless. Demos with "status" are definite proof? No. They were never definite proof, but most of us probably thought that they were definite proof for a long time. So, we did not know the truth. Now, it's been revealed exactly how unreliable such "definite proof" actually is. Knowledge is a good thing. Now we can understand the true reliability of your "definite proof".

Also, I don't think you understand the technical details. If you run a server and you want to accept demos from your players as "definite proof", then you don't have to worry about steamid replacer plugins, because you are not runnning the plugin on your server. You still have to worry about other easy methods to change the steamids in the demos, but not about plugins like Joaquim's plugin.

Quote:
Now, since it has already been posted, trashing it won't help, because sooner or later someone who wants to use it for bad purpose will get it and the harmed ones will be single users...
Again, Joaquim was NOT the first to expose the reality about steamids. Censoring his plugin does literally nothing to protect your "definite proof". The sooner you accept that a status with steamid is not reliable, the better.
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Last edited by stupok; 04-30-2010 at 13:05.
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