[HSFighter]

Originally Posted by prom3th3an I hope that with your response I can have a greater understanding of how SMACBans operates and also continue a constructive discussion on improvements that can be made to it.

It is very difficult to find a balance between the information for customers and to protect the security mechanisms and communitys.

Im so sorry for me i can not give more information about it. I would really like to do it.

But, this banlist was to begin only for us and we are satisfied!
Now we only add the option to share it. Not more or less.

The banreson for a SteamID is publicly available.

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Smacbans itself will not include whitelist.
But we give other people opportunity to do it.
This duscution has already been discussed above.

I can not go deeper without breaking the rules from asherkin




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[prom3th3an]

Originally Posted by HSFighter It is very difficult to find a balance between the information for customers and to protect the security mechanisms and communitys.

I'm somewhat confused. How could providing the greater TF2 community with an increased understanding of your internal ban vetting / validation processes cause any increased threat from people not even involved in the SMACBans.com project? We're not the ones making the bans. Unless you are suggesting you need to hide this information from the "trusted" communities involved in the project, which would be somewhat contradictory to the level of trust you have indicated that you have in them?

Originally Posted by HSFighter We also save the logs and many other infos over the smac plugin. Currently is being worked on to connect Steam Community an verfiy some parameters over the player. I'm so sorry for me i can not give more information about it. I would really like to do it.

So SMACBans.com has direct access to the logs on involved communities or does it request these logs from the communities? Aren't logs just text files which can be edited? Also, a thought just came to mind, who actually handles the appeals that SMACBans.com inevitably receives? Is it some independent people who don't run servers involved in the SMACbans.com project or is it possible for a partner community to handle appeals for bans that originated from their own servers?

Lastly, what information can Steam Community provide to help validate a SMACBan? I'd be interested to try and incorporate this in my own ban processes (if possible).

Originally Posted by HSFighter But, this banlist was to begin only for us and we are satisfied! Now we only add the option to share it.

I understand that sentiment, when I started hosting servers I did so for me and my friends. It was a hobby project that I didn't spend much time on. But over time my community has grown, has a large number of transient and regular players and I have to accept that I now I have moral obligations that did not exist before.

SMACBans, is no different. Would you agree that any public banlist (EG: SMACBans) which may be utilized by third parties has increased moral (and ethical) obligations over private banlists such as that of my own community? How does SMACBans.com intend to meet these obligations? If you'd like I'd be more happy to discuss some suggestions for improvement

Originally Posted by HSFighter Smacbans itself will not include whitelist. But we give other people opportunity to do it. This duscution has already been discussed above.

I'm a little disappointed by this response, as your reason for not including a whitelist per the original post is "A: NO! Bans in our list are valid and we do not support cheater!!!" but only two posts ago you publicly stated that it is possible for a ban not to be valid. I thought this realization may have brought about a change in policy so as to avoid appearing ignorant of community wishes.

Originally Posted by HSFighter I can not go deeper without breaking the rules from asherkin

To my understanding, through personal discussions with Asherkin regarding this thread, he simply didn't want posts by Allied Modders users disparaging SMACBans.com (or any plugin developer) for perceived flaws in how it operates. There is nothing stopping you as a plugin developer informing potential users of your plugin/service as to the intricacies of how it operates, so please don't hesitate to continue.

Finally (sorry for such a long response, but I am very interested in SMACBans.com and global banlists are a topic to be taken seriously), you might have missed some of my questions and points in post #72 as you did not answer/reply to them. Including, "Could you please clarify that there is a potential (doesn't matter how likely) that a trusted community could abuse it's involvement in the SMACBans.com website in a way which might result in innocent players being banned?" and "The fact that SMACBans' public pages do not provide the name of the community (or server) that the player was banned by raises some concerns over liability and chain of trust. Could you look at adding this kind of information to the site?".

I also note that some of my quotations have been edited out of your posts for some reason, may I inquire as to why?
Note: Post #73 was edited by the original author after this response was posted.

[HSFighter]

Originally Posted by prom3th3an I'm a little disappointed by this response, as your reason for not including a whitelist per the original post is "A: NO! Bans in our list are valid and we do not support cheater!!!" but only two posts ago you publicly stated that it is possible for a ban not to be valid. I thought this realization may have brought about a change in policy so as to avoid appearing ignorant of community wishes.

We do not want to be abused this function for cheater.

Q: Is the ban process save ? A: The ban process is as save as SMAC is. If there is a false positive people have the option to protest a ban at our forums.

Q: What can I do if get banned ? A: If the Ban is valid, there is nothing to do. If you think that you have been banned wrongly you can protest a ban in our Forum. LINK

It's simply possible to add a whitelist, but not directly through smacbans.com
So we have a clear conscience and admins some want to use whitelist are happy ;D

//Edit:

Originally Posted by prom3th3an I also note that some of my quotations have been edited out of your posts for some reason, may I inquire as to why

I notice you annswer first after im Finish to edit my post.

[prom3th3an]

Originally Posted by HSFighter We do not want to be abused this function for cheater.

What you are suggesting is that a server admin might whitelist a cheater on his own server? Whilst that wouldn't be ideal, surely if the server admin allows cheaters on his server (friends or otherwise) he wouldn't even be running your plugin or SMAC in the first place therefore your concerns are moot?

Further more, even if he was. Surely a situation where a server admin uses your plugin and white-lists 1 cheater is better than the admin not using your plugin and allowing ALL 13465 (accused) cheaters on his server? Your logic doesn't seem to stack up or am I missing something?

Originally Posted by HSFighter If there is a false positive people have the option to protest a ban at our forums.

That's good to know, but I have concerns over your appeals process. Firstly, it would appear the people handling the appeals are the same people who are making the bans. I know in my community we have a setup where appeals cannot be handled by the administrator / mod who made the ban in the first place. Is it true that nearly all moderators involved in SMACBans.com are officially involved in one of the communities which can issue bans in the first place?

Originally Posted by SMACBans Website A bad Admin has banned me Like we have mentioned above smacbans.com is a fully automated process. None Admin in the world can ban / unban you from our database except of us. - Link

Furthermore, you seem to be implacably opposed to any suggestion that a rogue admin / community can issue a false SMAC Ban, which means your appeals process is unfairly stacked toward the people making the bans...can you look into a way of addressing this?

Lastly, you've ignored nearly all the questions and suggestions in my last post. I'm starting to think you don't take your project seriously at all.
In any case, thank you for taking the time to respond to my queries, unfortunately this plugin is not for me or my community. Best wishes.

[HSFighter]

Originally Posted by prom3th3an Firstly, it would appear the people handling the appeals are the same people who are making the bans.

NO! Bans are Banned player from SMAC. We do not making the bans.

If you think that you have been banned wrongly we give you the chance to explain yourself. For an unban request in english pls use this LINK and read the guidelines first. One of our admins or mods we will check the background and will answer you or will give you instructions how to go on.

Public!

I now consider myself to the rules of asherkin.

All relevant facts are described in the FAQ (First Topic)!

[prom3th3an]

Originally Posted by HSFighter NO! Bans are Banned player from SMAC. We do not making the bans.

I'll quickly clarify this before departing to have dinner, since I wouldn't want there to be a misunderstanding.

A version of "SMAC" is automatically making bans on behalf of a "trusted" community.
It is possible (on your own admission) for an admin of a "trusted" community to fake a SMAC ban
And yet all appeals are handled by admins of the "trusted" communities making the bans.

Originally Posted by HSFighter Public!

Well, the English Appeals are supposedly public but the German ones are hidden from public view.
And I don't consider "I was wrongly banned..." => "...You were banned for aimbotting. Ban is valid!..." to be a transparent nor public system. Appeal responses rarely list any proof to justify that a ban is certainly valid. Best I've seen is a SourceBans link to one of the involved communities. (And therefore it must be true!). You should probably address that too.

[HSFighter]

Originally Posted by prom3th3an And yet all appeals are handled by admins of the "trusted" communities making the bans.

No, not all Admins of trustd communitys are mods in our community.
Some mods/admins in our community import nothing to us!
if you have a community/server with bans (e.x. Sourcebans) your are managing bans by your self.
We do the same. But we share our list. Not more or lees!

Originally Posted by prom3th3an It is possible (on your own admission) for an admin of a "trusted" community to fake a SMAC ban

No banlist on the world is 100% safe!
Of course we also have a lot security mechanisms to verify bans.
But we had this discussion already!

Originally Posted by prom3th3an ...You were banned for aimbotting. Ban is valid!...".

If it's a valid ban by SMAC the ban is valid!

Originally Posted by prom3th3an Well, the English Appeals are supposedly public but the German ones are hidden from public view.

This is not intended. We will correct this. Thanks
My own account is german, i did not notice this Bug before.


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[Mathias.]

Prom3th3an, I under your position and the open source idea, but what I've just suggested have been done in the past by KAC anti-cheats (old unsupported official anti-cheats) for a security purpose on the same issue. The code still 100% functional and nothing is broke, it just prevent to share a password to the general database, anyway he could do it in mysql instead, the socket idea was bad after thinking about it, because it easy to check which socket have been send and just discover the raw MD5 password.

The point of this is just to keep the official database safe while the plugin do is job but every still be able to read, modify and compile the code, the only inconvinient is if you do that your bans won't be added to the official ban list (which is already a problem).

Originally Posted by HSFighter We are always happy to hear about new idea's to make our service safer. Thx // Edit: At the beginning of the project we had a long discussion as we can make a import as safe as possible. If a server admin has extrem truly evil intentions he takes the player and trigger a *legitimate* smacban. Also a closed save import would be bypassing with this. Of course we also have a lot security mechanisms to verify bans. ;D The latest at a banprotest will put out if was cheated by a SteamID. (This procedure is public) No system is 100% secure. Even a private banlist are not 100% secure if there are lot of admins some have access to add bans. For exceptions: A serveradmin can code a whitelist and a protestboard is aslo aviable to handle bans from our banlist;) In my view: There are many more positive than negative arguments to use our service ^^ -

I totaly agreed, it was just a last minute idea before I went to sleep, but I do not understand why there alots of admins that have access to the database... Is not everything automatic? I know at least 1 person will need the information but you just lower your trust by saying there alot of admins that have access to add bans when your not supose to ban manualy?

Anyway, if I comme up with an other idea I will let you know. You could just do like KAC did, maybe it is not 100% secure but it probaly doing the job and as far as I know KAC never had problem with it for years.

[HSFighter]

Originally Posted by Black-Rabbit but I do not understand why there alots of admins that have access to the database... Is not everything automatic?

Our Mods/Trusted members have not directly access to our database.

There is a Webinterface for admins/mods to recive infos about a ban and nice other stuff.
It's not possible to add a ban manually over this Webinterface.

The only way to get a ban in our list is a Smacban on a server of a trusted member.

I hope i could help you with this answer?

[prom3th3an]

Originally Posted by Black-Rabbit Prom3th3an, I under your position and the open source idea, but what I've just suggested have been done in the past by KAC anti-cheats (old unsupported official anti-cheats) for a security purpose on the same issue. You could just do like KAC did, maybe it is not 100% secure but it probaly doing the job and as far as I know KAC never had problem with it for years.

Never had a problem with it? How misguided are you....Kigen got banned from Allied Modders for violating the Sourcemod license and his plugins forked under another developer thus making him totally irrelevant. This was all at a time where the Sourcemod developers didn't have the ability to blacklist malicious / license violating plugins. They now have this functionality and use it on a regular basis. Asherkin has already said it would be a violation which was a nice way of saying, "Go ahead, when your plugin refuses to load because we blacklisted it, don't cry to us."