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Development Roundup and More!

It's been quite a bit of time since our last news post, so not only do you get a development roundup, but some other related news spliced in as well!

Metamod:Source stable branch (1.10)

Not much exciting is going on with development of the stable branch of MM:S. However, like SM about 1.5 years ago, MM:S is now officially on a rolling release cycle as of two days ago.

There will be no more "final" releases of MM:S. As with SM, people looking to update their servers after a breaking game update would often grab the latest release rather than a snapshot build, not realizing that they might need something a bit more fresh. In addition to now avoiding that confusion with MM:S, we've also revamped its builds download page, adding similar revision information and source links to what you see on the SM builds download page, and adding support for HTTPS to all downloads.

SourceMod stable branch (1.8)

Similar to the stable branch of MM:S, there's nothing too exciting going on with this. We're continuing to provide many, many game compatibility updates as needed, including updated gamedata files. Additionally, multiple bugfixes have made their way in since this was tagged as the new stable branch a bit over a year ago.

On the note of bug fixes, after weighing the pros and cons, we've decided to switch to GitHub Issues moving forward for future bug reports and feature requests for SourceMod. While this requires users to have a GitHub account to report an issue, many didn't know that the previous bug tracker existed, let alone that they could log in with their forum credentials. (It also unintuitively took forum email address, rather than username). There are numerous stagnant issues there, many that are no longer relevant or that have just been requiring more information for years. This will give us a fresh start. The old tracker is still available, but set to no longer accept new SM bug reports. As before, it will not be for general support or help. The forums are better suited for that.

Metamod:Source development branch (1.11)

Some highlights:

Added support for compiling on newer toolchains, such as Visual Studio 2015 and 2017 on Windows.
Removed the old v1.4 plugin API.
Added v1.6 API support for "ep1" games (The Ship and Source SDK 2006 mods).
Re-added support for Dota 2. (This includes initial support for Source2 and x64 dedicated servers!).

On the note of Source2, there has been some stir lately due to rumors that CS:GO will be ported to it in the future. That obviously solicited many questions from people, wondering if SourceMod would continue to work with it.

While we don't foresee CS:GO moving to it anytime soon, having MM:S work on the newer engine was the first step and had been in the works for over a year. There are now four Source2 releases, but Dota 2 is the only multiplayer one, and is more lobby-based than relying on dedicated servers. That's part of the reason that it's a bit too early to say what SourceMod's fate will be on Source2. On the server side, the differences are somewhere between jumping from an older Source variant to a newer one, and the jump from GoldSrc to Source. And similarly to when Source debuted, there is no SDK; we're flying blind.

We've not settled on anything yet, but one of the following three approaches is likely.

Add Source2 support to SourceMod. Some whole sets of API just won't work on Source2 or may act a bit differently. Some new Source2-exclusive ones would be added. Our code would become (more of) a mess, but scripts that don't rely on engine functionality would continue to work as-is. Many scripts would still need to be updated.
Create one or more new MM:S plugins that just extend the VScript scripting API that already exists in the engine, exposing an admin API and whatever other functionality is missing. No existing scripts would work, but the base of the scripting API is a first-class citizen and would have a much smaller chance of breaking with a game update, as Valve would be maintaining the bulk of it.
Create "Source2Mod", porting SourceMod to Source2, dropping support for Source(1) in that copy. Clean up APIs and make Source2 a first-class citizen. The majority of scripts would break, but the familiar SourcePawn language and non-engine APIs would stay the same.

We're not necessarily asking for input yet, just sharing some ideas we're tossing around. They involve differing amounts of work required, and we still have plenty of reverse-engineering left to do to figure out the full extent of what we can do.

SourceMod development branch (1.9)

Some highlights:

Added support for Counter-Strike: Classic Offensive and Alien Swarm: Reactive Drop.
Added the ability to trigger an entity output directly.
Added the ability to get and set entity output variables.
Added a native and extended the Database methodmap to allow safe, escaped SQL query value string formatting.
Added support for having multiple public and multiple private chat triggers, (such as having both ! and / as private, with no public triggers).
Changed the "ep1" builds (used by The Ship and Source SDK 2006 mods) to use the newer MM:S v1.6 plugin API (requiring MM:S v1.11 or later).
Added support for compiling on newer toolchains, such as Visual Studio 2015 and 2017 on Windows.

And unrelated to any of that...

Some users have recently expressed interest in having an AM or SM Discord, Slack, or other chat provider set up. While we have no plans to split the community across multiple chat services, I'd like to remind everyone that there is still an active community for SourceMod on IRC (irc.gamesurge.net). The #sourcemod channel exists for anything related to SourceMod - installation help, plugin development questions, and more. There is also an #am-announce channel for those that want to follow development live. All git pushes, issue and pull request openings/closings, and most game updates get announced there as they occur.

For those that don't have an IRC client installed, there are also multiple web chat clients available.

Re: Development Roundup and More!

Wonderful!

Big thank you to everyone who contributed to and/or worked on SourceMod and everything listed here. Keep up the great work guys :)

Re: Development Roundup and More!

Would it be possible to open Github issues for SourcePawn as well?

Edit: Also add labels for SourceMod to as best as possible match sub-sections of the SourceMod bug section on Bugzilla (eg: a label reading "core")

Re: Development Roundup and More!

Good questions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildCard65 (Post 2517055)

Would it be possible to open Github issues for SourcePawn as well?

We've not decided yet if we'll be doing this for other projects.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildCard65 (Post 2517055)

Edit: Also add labels for SourceMod to as best as possible match sub-sections of the SourceMod bug section on Bugzilla (eg: a label reading "core")

We'll add in labels as issues come in, using identifiers that make sense, rather than doing a 1:1 port of the ones we have in Bugzilla.

Re: Development Roundup and More!

Quote:

Originally Posted by psychonic (Post 2516972)

Create "Source2Mod", porting SourceMod to Source2, dropping support for Source(1) in that copy. Clean up APIs and make Source2 a first-class citizen. The majority of scripts would break, but the familiar SourcePawn language and non-engine APIs would stay the same.

I feel that "SourceMod 2" would roll off the tongue a little easier.

It's refreshing to hear some of the ideas moving forward about SourceMod, but I'd also like to know more about the direction of SourcePawn itself. Any info/updates on that?

Re: Development Roundup and More!

Quote:

Originally Posted by psychonic (Post 2517061)

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildCard65 (Post 2517055)

Would it be possible to open Github issues for SourcePawn as well?

We've not decided yet if we'll be doing this for other projects.

This has now been done for SourcePawn. We'll probably also do for MM:S at some point, and our hl2sdk repo already had the issues section open.

Re: Development Roundup and More!

SourceMod 2 would be v2 of SourceMod, in other words the version after 1.9. Source2Mod would make more sense. Psychonic stated they're not taking input so it doesn't matter either way.

At some point you have to ask yourselves if all this time you're spending developing sourcemod is worth it. Maybe it is but the CSGO dev community has been awful in comparison to 1.6 and CSS. Source2 could end up even worse as far as custom content and custom community servers go.

Re: Development Roundup and More!

Quote:

Originally Posted by PartialCloning (Post 2517150)

At some point you have to ask yourselves if all this time you're spending developing sourcemod is worth it. Maybe it is but the CSGO dev community has been awful in comparison to 1.6 and CSS. Source2 could end up even worse as far as custom content and custom community servers go.

Must be easy to judge a community that you're not a part of. SourceMod isn't exclusive to CS:GO, and CS:GO's quirks/limitations would never halt SourceMod development.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PartialCloning (Post 2517150)

At some point you have to ask yourselves if all this time you're spending developing sourcemod is worth it.

It is.

Re: Development Roundup and More!

Quote:

Originally Posted by PartialCloning (Post 2517150)

At some point you have to ask yourselves if all this time you're spending developing sourcemod is worth it.

I can assure you that we're perfectly capable of deciding for ourselves how to use our time.

Re: Development Roundup and More!

Where did the other guy's comment go?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Headline (Post 2517169)

Must be easy to judge a community that you're not a part of. SourceMod isn't exclusive to CS:GO, and CS:GO's quirks/limitations would never halt SourceMod development.

What makes you think I'm not a part of it? Not posting in the sourcemod section isn't a good indicator.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Headline (Post 2517169)

It is.

I was talking to the sourcemod maintainers, if it's worth their time continuing the development of sourcemod.

Quote:

Originally Posted by psychonic (Post 2517177)

I can assure you that we're perfectly capable of deciding for ourselves how to use our time.

Yeah, nowhere did I say you aren't capable but it seems like less and less players are focused on custom content and more into what valve provides such as operations and skins.

Quote:

Originally Posted by psychonic (Post 2516972)

Create one or more new MM:S plugins that just extend the VScript scripting API that already exists in the engine, exposing an admin API and whatever other functionality is missing. No existing scripts would work, but the base of the scripting API is a first-class citizen and would have a much smaller chance of breaking with a game update, as Valve would be maintaining the bulk of it.

What would be the draw backs to that approach? If I understood correctly it works alongside the scripting system for source2, but would it be limited to what the script allows?

On a side note can you allow github issues for amxmodx or would that have to go through Arkshine?

Re: Development Roundup and More!

Quote:

Originally Posted by PartialCloning (Post 2517180)

Where did the other guy's comment go?

He deleted it himself. I re-deleted it, removing the deletion reason, as it was just a summary of the post itself, which was offtopic and snarky.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PartialCloning (Post 2517180)

Quote:

Originally Posted by psychonic (Post 2516972)

What would be the draw backs to that approach? If I understood correctly it works alongside the scripting system for source2, but would it be limited to what the script allows?

Yes. You would start with the existing API that Valve provides, but then could extend it, similar to how SourceMod extensions or AMX Mod X modules work.

The biggest downside is that no part of existing scripts will continue to function, and users may have to learn a new scripting language. The scripting language may not even be the same between games. (The API wouldn't necessarily be either, even for common functions, but our extended API could be). For example, CS:GO currently uses Squirrel and Dota 2 uses Lua.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PartialCloning (Post 2517180)

On a side note can you allow github issues for amxmodx or would that have to go through Arkshine?

I could, but it would indeed be much better to go through Arkshine.

Re: Development Roundup and More!

Quote:

Originally Posted by psychonic (Post 2517183)

Quote:

Originally Posted by PartialCloning (Post 2517180)

Where did the other guy's comment go?

He deleted it himself. I re-deleted it, removing the deletion reason, as it was just a summary of the post itself, which was offtopic and snarky.

Sorry :( I had made a comment in regards to the whole "CSGO dev community has been awful" thing, specifically speaking out against the selling of plugins for CS:GO that blatantly go against Valve's wishes which include fake knife/weapon skin plugins, fake medal/rank plugins, etc. I edited the post a few times to change the wording to be as neutral as possible so it didn't read like an attack piece, but in the end I decided to just delete the post. In my infinite cannabis wisdom, I decided to be Mr. Funny Guy and actually name names in regards to the selling "fake <thing>" plugins and such in the deletion reason of my post which was very stupid of me to do. I had also wondered why the "deleted" remnant of my post had seemingly disappeared almost instantly. Now I know.

I know I can get very opinionated and stubborn sometimes and in cases like with my earlier post, it was a case of me figuring it'd be hilarious to call someone out in the deletion reason. I've been trying to distance myself from that silly childish crap that I used to partake in over the years which got me banned from a few communities, but I slip up sometimes. I now find myself typing up responses to heated debates and the like, only to think "why bother" and delete everything I had typed up. Before, I would wholeheartedly defend my viewpoint on the subject even if it meant a bunch of silly drama got started. I look back at my time in some of the communities I used to be a part of, and I regret how my time in those communities came to an end due to my own silliness.

Re: Development Roundup and More!

The relations between Valve and CSGO community isn't friendly. Valve as a company seeks for profits. In the moment that certain server owners decide to attack their profits by using WS/Knife plugins they are just ruining Valve's business. Before CSGO Valve used to earn money by selling fresh copies of CSS for example. Now the most of their revenue comes from the skins market. Sometimes I want do deny to myself how this story will end but they will have to do something. The Token bans haven't being able to fix the issue. This engine change will be the final blow.

Re: Development Roundup and More!

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwahgnerbp (Post 2517307)

While they certainly make a huge amount of profit from the Steam Economy, the banning for skin/knife plugins is because it devalues the items that other players have legitimately, not because of lost profits for them. It hurts those players, giving them a bad experience. This is particularly true for rare items, like knives.

Re: Development Roundup and More!

I think the SM 1.8 plugin loading logic broke something. I made the first issue report on Github.

Re: Development Roundup and More!

Posted these in IRC, but it may be better fielded here in this thread:

Code:

[12:27] <josh_> I was very interested in the post regarding support for Source2 on the forums, and had a question regarding whether or not there had been much discussion on extension support as well going forward

[12:27] <josh_> it seemed like option 2 - the more wrapper style approach to existing items within the game would be unavailable, but options 1 and 3 seemed like they could

[12:28] <josh_> I know that INativeInvoker was deprecated in the past, curious if the function calling alternative (name has spaced my mind at the moment) would be on the list of potential inclusions

[12:37] <josh_> I am also curious if there is anyone with more in-depth knowledge of extension coding that may be available for freelance effort in lieu of these potential changes (should I have not time personally)

Disregard, it seems IRC was a viable place to ask questions. Responses in case anyone else was interested:

Code:

[12:43] <@asherkin> josh_: I'm not sure what you're asking really

[12:43] <@asherkin> McKay: you can pool among plugins mixing threaded and non-threaded queries

[12:44] <josh_> asherkin: in the current sourcemod, I can call functions defined in sourcemod through an extension, in the past I could also do that with natives.  I was curious if any forethought was put into extensions in the future (source2) having such capabilities

[12:45] <josh_> I apologize if that still doesn't make much sense

[12:45] <BotoX> with a little hax you can also call natives

[12:45] <BotoX> that is modified sourcemod

[12:46] <BotoX> https://p.botox.bz/view/941ba248

[12:46] <BotoX> not complete™

[12:46] <josh_> I am not super concerned, we made due with the function availability - I am just trying to forecast if our current extension can be modified to suit a potentially new environment, and while I realize its rather early, was hoping to discern if any opinions had already been made in this regard

[12:46] <+McKay> Doesn't sound so bad to me as long as nobody is using synchronous queries

[12:46] <@asherkin> INativeInvoker was removed because it is only useful for embedding other languages in SM

[12:46] <+McKay> I certainly wouldn't want to run a plugin that did

[12:46] <@asherkin> it is far too early to discuss that in the context of Source2

[12:46] <BotoX> <asherkin> INativeInvoker was removed because it is useful

[12:47] <josh_> correct asherkin , which is what we had been doing.  We still do this via the function call, and make a Glue plugin (per psychonic

[12:47] <josh_> 's recommendation)